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Bid or Buy Z.A. Members & Copyright Theft
Many Bid or Buy Z.A. sellers, including dealers continually infringe our IP (Intellectual Property) rights by using our copyright images. We invest considerable time and money in our photographs, and do not appreciate their misappropriation by Bid or Buy Z.A. members or others, especially when they are using our effort to compete with us.

Copyright Notice
Please see our "Copyright" page for further information.

Copyright Infringements Remedies
Our suggested draft remedies for copyright abusers dependent on category - competitors, bloggers, pseudo-expert & advice sites acting as eBay & Google portals, eBay & other auction site sellers.

Other Copyright Abuse

Copyright Thieves on Bid or Buy Z.A.
We already have a page naming and shaming dealers using our images without permission. It's time we did the same for Bid or Buy Z.A.
Seller IDItem NumberDateDescriptionPrice
BELLCOIN1479244321st Aug 20092009 1 OUNCE PROOF KRUGERRAND!! KILLER PRICE!R 13,000
BELLCOIN1981839310th Mar 20101977 1 OUNCE PROOF KRUGERRAND!! KILLER PRICE!R 11,500
BELLCOIN1981461810th Mar 20102009 1 OUNCE PROOF KRUGERRAND!! KILLER PRICE! R 13,000
pta_collectors1732936524th Nov 20092009 Proof Kruger Rand - 1Oz R 12,600
IFL1952733410th Mar 2010Krugerrand Coins For Sale at R12 000 each. R 12,000
IFL1958547410th Mar 2010Krugerrand Coins For Sale at R12 000 each. R 12,000
NDTSA1990571210th Mar 20101 oz PROOF KRUGERANDS R 10,995

Seller ID. There is nothing to stop Bid or Buy Z.A. members changing their "Seller ID", or opening a new account.
Item Number. We may have shown only one out of many similar items.
Date = End date or date added to this page if item still current.
Description = Description as used by the seller as his item title.
Price = Final selling price if known, otherwise "Current Price", or "Starting bid".

Report Abuse?
We searched Bid or Buy's site, and could find no link or other information about reporting copyright abuse, so we sent them the following e-mail:

9th Mar 2010
Copyright Infringement
Dear Sirs,
You do not appear to display on your site any Copyright Infringement Reporting Facility.
Please advise us how we may notify you of current and future breaches of our Intellectual Property Rights.
Lawrence Chard
Chard (1964) Limited
32 - 36 Harrowside
England, UK.
Tel 0044 (0)1253 343081
Fax 0044 (0)1253 408058

BidorBuy's response:

Morne Booysen, bidorbuy Community Watch wrote:
Thank you for the email, please could I just correct you we bidorbuy and not Ebay as you letter is addressed to.
Also the copyright for the images of any Paul Kruger coins as held by the SA Mint/South African Reserve bank. I have therefore taken the liberty to forward your email on to them for comment.
Unfortunately your request to remove the items and users details is denied.
Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information or assistance.
Kind regards
E -
T - 0861 88 0861
W -
bidorbuy - Africa's Largest Online Marketplace
Although we were too polite to tell BidorBuy they were talking rubbish, or worse, we did respond to correct their apparent misunderstanding, although we are not convinced that the owners of such a substantial looking site are ignorant of copyright law, we think they are simply trying to fob us off and permit their members to continue infringing our copyright at will. This our opinion makes Bid or Buy even worse than eBay who do at least pay lip service to IP rights, and mainly remove offending material reasonably quickly, although they are far from perfect.
Our Reply
Dear Morne,
Thanks for your quick response.
Re eBay: As you can probably tell, we re-used an existing template, and it looks as though I did not edit it thoroughly enough. Thank you for pointing this out.
We will further edit and correct our new template for future use.
While you may be partially correct in your assertion about "copyright for the images of any Paul Kruger coins", we think you will find that the design of Krugerrands is the intellectual property of Rand Refinery.
We hereby protest against your decision to deny our entirely reasonable and correct request for you to take down the offending listings.
In international law copyright subsists in all original works including photographs. As owner of the copyright of our photographs, we are entitled to legal protection against infringers, including your members. As a provider of internet services, you enjoy some protection against legal action for copyright infringement, but only if you take down or remove the offending material promptly. You you elected to knowingly permit this material to remain on your website, and therefore have assumed joint and several responsibility for the continuation of the breach of copyright.
We are therefore entitled to sue you for copyright infringement, and will seek substantial damages and penalties. Please ensure that all the reported material is removed from your website within 7 days of this e-mail. In the event that you fail to do so, we will instruct our solicitors to commence legal proceedings against you, and will hold you fully responsible for all costs involved. This may include injunctive relief.
Copyright infringement is a serious matter, and we strongly suggest that you consult legal advisors.
Lawrence Chard
Chard (1964) Limited

Yes, But...
A further, incorrect e-mail from Bid or Buy...

Cuan Akal, bidorbuy Community Watch wrote:
Dear Sir
Thank you for your email.
Rand Refinery is the only refinery in the world authorised by the South African Treasury, through the Reserve Bank of South Africa, to manufacture and supply the gold coin blanks for Krugerrands. The South African Mint Company is contracted by the South African Reserve Bank to mint these blanks into Krugerrand bullion coins. Copyright belongs to the Reserve Bank of South Africa, not Rand Refinery and definitely not you.
Although we are under no legal obligation to you to remove these images, we will ask the seller to remove them if they are your pictures, however, you must remember that images taken from the internet fall into the public domain and would be very difficult to prove that this exact image is yours, as there are many images hosted on Google that look similar or like your image and that are hosted by many other websites.
Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information or assistance.
Kind regards
E -
T - 0861 88 0861
W -
bidorbuy - Africa's Largest Online Marketplace

Our Further Response:

Dear Cuan,
It is not relevant to our correspondence who owns the copyright on the design of Krugerrands. By taking high quality photographs of Krugerrands, we are not attempting to assert any rights over the original design.
What is relevant and important is that copyright can and does subsist independently in both the original work and in photographs of it. Although this is quite simple, it is a common misconception. You appear to be confused and wrong about it. If you are in any doubt, please remember our suggestion that you take expert legal advice on the matter.
It is not sufficient for you to merely ask your members to remove our images. We requested that you remove the infringing material promptly, and this is what we expect you to do.
South Africa is a signatory to the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, and to W.I.P.O. , and this obliges it to afford the same rights to UK copyright owners as to those enjoyed by its own citizens. In addition to establishing a system of equal treatment amongst signatories, the agreement also requires member states to provide strong minimum standards for copyright law.
Please ensure the infringing copyright material is removed without further delay. We reserve all legal rights. Please refer to our earlier correspondence.
Lawrence Chard

Alphabetical Listing of Other Copyright Theft Sites

Other Web Sites
All comments about copyright also cover content of all our other websites including, but not limited to:-

Bid or Buy Krugerrand Search
Bid or Buy Krugerrand Search

Our 2004 Proof Krugerrand Obverse Image
Our 2004 Proof Krugerrand Obverse Image

Our 2009 Krugerrand Reverse Image
Our 2009 Krugerrand Reverse Image


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32 - 36 Harrowside, Blackpool, Lancashire, FY4 1RJ, England. Telephone (44) - (0) 1253 - 343081; Fax 408058;
E-mail: Contact Us  The URL for our main page is:

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