kastriotis in eBay Copyright Theft
kastriotis of KASTORIA, KASTORIA, Greece, stole our 1947 Swiss Vreneli Gold 20 Francs Reverse photographs without permission, and failed to tell buyers it was not the same coin he was selling.
Later he changed his entire listing (almost) to "100 Red Worms ( nightcrawlers ) for Fishing & Compost"
He probably found the coin image on our Swiss Brief History page.

High eBay Feedback is No Guarantee of Integrity or Honesty
When we wrote this page, this eBay member's feedback was 416 with 100% positive, according to eBay.

eBay Copyright Thieves
Many eBay vendors use our coin photographs to sell inferior quality coins on eBay. These eBay members are dishonest and should be avoided.
We believe eBay profits from IP rights infringements (copyright theft), and does so knowingly, only removing infringing items reluctantly, if at all.

Original Listing
When we originally saw this item listing, it was for a 1947 Swiss Gold Coin. Overnight, it magically metamorphosed into a Can of Worms.
If kastriotis could learn to perform this magical transformation in the opposite direction, he could become the most successful alchemist of all time, turning worms into gold.

Revised Listing

100 Red Worms ( nightcrawlers ) for Fishing & Compost
(All the body of the listing was comprised of images, making it difficult for us to reproduce it here).
We also had technical difficulties obtaining a full page screenshot using our usual method, this may have been because of its size (about 6,000 pixels deep), so have shown a partial screengrab.

Item specifics
Condition:
"New: A brand-new, unused, unopened and undamaged item in the original packaging (where packaging is applicable). Packaging should be the same as what is found in the retail shop. If the item comes straight from the manufacturer it may be delivered in non-retail packaging, such as an unprinted box or plastic bag. See the seller's listing for full details. See all condition definitions"

Revisions

Revision summary for item #320553438999
The seller has revised the following item information:
Date Time Revised Information
25-Jun-10 00:48:49 BST
Description
01-Jul-10 12:57:44 BST
Description
Postage Terms
Buy It Now Price
18-Jul-10 03:10:32 BST
Gallery
Title
PictureURL: Pictures Added/Deleted
Item Location
Description
Category
Postage Terms
Buy It Now Price
18-Jul-10 03:15:54 BST
Quantity
Postage Terms
18-Jul-10 03:54:28 BST
Postage Terms
18-Jul-10 20:14:18 BST
Postage Terms
Buy It Now Price
20-Jul-10 01:18:38 BST
Postage Terms
Buy It Now Price
The seller may make revisions during the listing period. However, the seller cannot change some of the information, such as format or duration of the listing. Learn more
As a buyer, you can see the item you purchased from the Purchase history page. Learn more

Seller ID	Item Number	Date	Description	Price
kastriotis	320553438999	28th Jun 2010	Helvetia – Vreneli 20FR Gold Coin ( 1947 )	US $0.99
kastriotis	320553438999	18th Jul 2010	100 Red Worms ( nightcrawlers ) for Fishing & Compost	US $2.99

What's Wrong?
We invest a great deal of time, effort, and cost into creating some of the best photographic coin and gold bar images on the internet. We strongly object when lazy and dishonest people decide to use them without a by your leave or thanks, doing so in competition with us.
Copyright theft is dishonest. We recommend you avoid doing business with dishonest dealers.
It is always possible, even likely, that sellers who steal photographs do not own a similar coin, and have the intention to totally defraud potential buyers.
The vendor is not only cheating us by stealing our copyright images, he is fraudulently or ignorantly misleading and deceiving all potential buyers. Gaining pecuniary advantage by deception is the definition of fraud.
Whether kastriotis is misleading them deliberately or in ignorance, we cannot tell, perhaps it is a mixture of both, in which case he is not only lazy, but stupid and dishonest.

Price
The seller was asking a starting price of $0.99 for this listing.
Whatever the item "sells" for, after eBay's greedy 10% selling fees, and possible PayPal charges, the crook may have been much better off selling the coins to us, instead of stealing our photographs.

eBay Guilty of Negligence or Complicity
We will be reporting this example of copyright abuse using our standard Statutory Declaration via the eBay VeRO programme, and wait to see if they chose to action or ignore our report. We look forward to taking legal action against eBay for their negligence and / or complicity if they fail to take down the offending material promptly.
We should probably delay reporting this item until a buyer has sent some money. This may sound cynical of us, but if enough greedy buyers got conned, they might kick up enough fuss, go to the media, and get eBay the publicity it deserves. It is not our job to act as unpaid policemen for eBay.

Reported & Queried
We reported this item on 19th July 2010.
At the time, the seller had changed most of his listing, including most of our images.
What sellers do not seem to realise is that, when they change their images, some of the old original images persist. These include thumbnails used by eBay to cross-promote goods, and act as reminders of items viewed. In this case, the original eBay gallery image, a copy of our photograph, persisted, and was displayed when we accessed our eBay home page. We presume that the same image may also be shown to other eBay users.
From experience, we know that if we report an eBay listing where the vendor has changed his images, the eBay VeRO department get confused, and challenge our IP infringement report.
To avoid this, we sent a report which included the URL of the offending persistent image. This still confused VeRO who replied that we need to include an item number.
Accordingly today, 20th July 2010, we have sent a new report stating the item number. Our guess is that they will contest this report stating that they cannot see why we are reporting it.
Whether this is deliberate obstruction, or simply poor staff training of the VeRO team members, we do not know, and we do not think they would supply a meaningful reply if we asked.

Our IP Report (Partial)

Notice of Claimed Infringement - Statutory Declaration
eBay International A.G.
Attn: VeRO Programme
Date: As below
Dear eBay,
I, xxx
Of Chard (1964) Limited
do solemnly and sincerely declare as follows:
• I am the owner, or an agent authorised to act on behalf of the owner, of certain intellectual property rights (“IP Owner”);
• I have a good faith belief that the listings identified below (by item number) offer items or contain materials that are not authorised by the IP Owner, its agent, or the law, and therefore infringe the IP Owner’s rights according to English law; and
• I make this declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and correct and in accordance with English law.
Reason Code
Copyright—Infringing /Listing /Content
4.2 Listing(s) uses unauthorized copy of copyrighted image
We also hereby request you to supply us with the full contact details of the infringing member.
Please note that in our experience, eBay members infringing copyright should also be treated with suspicion, as it is likely that they do not own the coins or other items for which they are using copied images, they may be falsely misrepresenting the condition of the coins offered, and if copying our text, they may be falsely pretending to have expert knowledge of the items being offered.
Please also note that most of our images can be identified and verified by the presence of a Digimarc watermark.
/kastriotis.html
Item Number(s)
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/3205534389996464.jpg
*Member ID*
kastriotis
*Date*
19th Jul 2010

eBay VeRO's Reply

eBay United Kingdom Customer Support (vero)
09:00
Hello xxx,
Thank you for sending us your Notice of Claimed Infringement --Statutory Declaration (NOCI).
Unfortunately we can't take any action because you didn't include any item numbers for us to investigate.
Please add some item numbers and submit your NOCI again. It's not enough to simply report a member's User ID or name.
We look forward to receiving your completed NOCI and thank you for your support in helping us keep eBay a safe and reputable place to shop.
Kind regards,
Austin Richards
eBay VeRO Team
Learn more about the eBay Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Programme - take our tutorial. Copy the following link into a new browser window:
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/tutorial/verotutorial/intro.html

Reference? - What Reference?
We notice that when we get these messages from eBay, they hardly ever include the body of our original message, so that we have no reference to which NOCI report it relates. Some days we send dozens. Again we do not know whether this is deliberate obstruction by eBay, or whether these omission are made out of pure ignorance, negligence, poor training, lack of user sympathy / empathy, or what, but it is frustrating, but it is only what we have come to expect from eBay.

Re: eBay VeRO Program - NOCI Received - More Information Requested

20th July 2010
vero@ebay.com wrote:
Re: eBay VeRO Program - NOCI Received - More Information Requested
Hello,
Thank you for contacting the VeRO Program.
We reviewed the Notice of Claimed Infringement you sent us today and the items you identified.
kastriotis
320553438999
The Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program is designed to process reports of intellectual property infringement. From the information provided, however, the nature of intellectual property infringement you are attempting to report is unclear.
If you feel that these listings do infringe on your intellectual property rights, please respond to this message and provide us with a more detailed explanation.
If you`d like to report a stolen item, please go to:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/stolen.html
We look forward to hearing from you.
Sincerely,
VeRO Program
eBay

Third Attempt
On 21st July 2010, we sent a third e-mail to eBay's VerO department, on response, and gave a lengthy explanation, together with copies of both our e-mail reports, and links to both this and our original kastriotis page.
We hope they manage to work things our this time.
To save space and time, we will not repeat all of our third e-mail here, only the newest and most relevant parts:

Dear VeRO,
We correctly predicted your response to this report, but we were still disappointed by you response which we believe is inadequate.
On 19th July , we sent the following report relating to the same listing number:

(omitted)

As you can see, we cited an eBay thumbnail which is copied from our 1947 Swiss 20 franc gold coin photo which you can find on the URL stated on both reports.
To the above report, we received the unsatisfactory reply from your Austin Richards:

(omitted)

This was doubly unsatisfactory, as in addition to not acting on our report, which we believe may be due to flaws in your systems, and it failed to quote any identity reference or to attach our report. If we had made a large number of reports on the same day, which we often do, we would not have been able easily or efficiently to determine to which of them you were replying. We have also noticed this type of failure previously.
Your member kastriotis originally listed this item using a number of photographs copied from our websites. A few days ago, for some reason, he almost completely altered his item listing. (It is possible he has sold the item, and is avoiding fees).
What your members appear not to know, and what eBay and its VeRO department also seem not to realise, is that the original thumbnail images often persist even after the main images in the listing itself have been changed.
We have in the made previous reports and complaints to you to the effect that you have failed to remove listings where this occurs. This is legally unacceptable, and we are entitled to have our copyright respected, and copied images removed without unreasonable delay.
We have added a further web page explaining this example, which you can view at:
/kastriotis2.html
We are also about to add further edits to this page.
The two pages show a number of images, and a timeline of events.

Please note that the page URL associated with the thumbnail image is:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320553438999&Category=20540
We had assumed that you could identify this from the actual image URL itself, and we still believe this to be the case.
We sincerely hope that you can now take the appropriate action without any further delay.
We also have a similar case which we will report soon.

Incredible But True
On 21st July we received a reply to our above e-mail:
Time 20.06 21st July 2010

Re: eBay VeRO Program - NOCI Received - More Information Requested (KMM28535827I15977L0KM)
Dear xxx,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to your Notice of Claimed Infringement.
We reviewed the Notice of Claimed Infringement that you sent and the listings that you identified.
The Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program is designed to process reports of intellectual property infringement. From the information provided, however, the nature of intellectual property infringement you are attempting to report is unclear.
If you feel that these listings do infringe on your intellectual property rights, please respond to this message and provide us with a more detailed explanation.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Boris
eBay Customer Support

Getting Tedious
21st July 21.24

Dear Boris,
I find it difficult to believe that you have yet again sent your standard "don't understand" reply to all three of our e-mails relating to this listing.
We gave a full explanation in our latest email, and believe it contains more than enough information and evidence of continued copyright infringement.
We also gave further details in our two links, which you do not acknowledge having read.
Please ensure the listing is removed without further delay.
We hold you, eBay, legally responsible jointly and severally with your member kastriotis, for the continued infringement of our intellectual property rights.
Would you please ensure that our e-mails are passed on to the Vero department manager and your legal department.
Regards,

Not Again!

Dear xxx,
Thank you for writing eBay in regard to our request for clarification.
We understand your concern and we reviewed the listing you identified but we were not able to locate the image of concern. You have also mentioned that the listing was altered and if that is the case, the image may no longer be present. If the listing no longer contains the image, we are unsure on the basis of your report.
If we misunderstood, please provide additional details and we'll be happy to review your report further.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Boris
eBay Customer Support
Trust and Safety Operations

Robert Bruce Come Back!

Dear Boris,
We understand your concern and we reviewed the listing you identified but we were not able to locate the image of concern.
It is located here:
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/3205534389996464.jpg
You have also mentioned that the listing was altered and if that is the case, the image may no longer be present.
It is, otherwise we would not be telling you so...
If the listing no longer contains the image,
...But it is not now in the actual listing itself
we are unsure on the basis of your report.
The image still persists under certain conditions, as we already explained to you several times.
For example, if you view the actual listing:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320553438999&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Then click on the eBay (home) logo, to go to your local eBay home page, you will see the thumbnail image we have advised you about in the
My Recent Activity
Viewed Items section.
Despite it being a 1947 Swiss gold coin, it will have a partial header saying:
100 Red Worms ( nightc...
If you then click either the header or the image itself, the link takes you to item listing 320553438999.
If we misunderstood,
That does appear to be the case.
please provide additional details
We have restated it above, yet again.
We have also provided screen shots on the web pages we cited.
and we'll be happy to review your report further.
Thank you, hopefully with positive results this time.
Thank you for your time.
It's £1,000 per hour.
Regards,

Let's Cross Our Fingers
(It's probably more effective!)

Finally...

VeRO Program -- eBay Listing Removed
vero@ebay.com
16.45
22nd Jul 2010
Thank you for contacting us.
We are pleased to inform you that the following listing(s) you reported have been removed from eBay in response to the Notice of Claimed Infringement you recently sent:
kastriotis
320553438999
We have notified the seller and all participating bidders that the listing(s) has been removed due to your request.
If the Notice of Claimed Infringement contained items that are not listed above you will receive a separate email communication about those items. These notices may arrive at different times (over a period of up to several hours) as items for different sellers are processed separately.
If you should have any questions or concerns regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact us again.
VeRO Program
eBay Trust & Safety

Conclusions
If at first you don't succeed..
Try something different?
Give up?
Make it idiot-proof? (We thought we had)
Lose the will to live?
Any other polite suggestion?

Weight of Evidence
What we will do is retain a file on this event, for future use in ay legal action against eBay.
When they allege that they take copyright infringement seriously, we could point to hit failure, and numerous others, and ask them to explain themselves.

Another Good Reason Not to Snipe
Many eBayers think "sniping" is a good idea, and we can understand why, after all the last person to bid in most auctions is the highest bidder, who "wins" (another eBay euphemism for buys) the item. We have given this much thought, and have the benefit of considerable experience, and our advice is to place your limit bid early using eBay's proxy bidding system. Just place your bid, and eBay's system does the rest. Although it is open to abuse (nothing's perfect), the earliest of multiple bidders will win despite bidding the same price. Indeed, often to outbid you, other bidders must add at least the next bidding increment. (e.g. If you have bid £600, they cannot outbid you at £601, but will have to bid at least £620).
The example shown on this page would be interesting if a potential buyer had used a sniping service to place his bid in the last few seconds. First he might be pleasantly surprised to find he had "won" a $200 gold coin for only $3, but his surprise would probably be even greater when he received his purchase to find 100 wiggly worms instead.

Copyright Notice
Please see our "Copyright" page for further information.

Copyright Infringements Remedies
Our suggested draft remedies for copyright abusers dependent on category - competitors, bloggers, pseudo-expert & advice sites acting as eBay & Google portals, eBay & other auction site sellers.

Other Copyright Abuse

Other Copyright Abuse

Buying Gold Coins & Bars on eBay

Selling Gold Coins & Bars on eBay

Copyright Thieves on eBay
We already have a page naming and shaming dealers using our images without permission. It's time we did the same for eBay, although if we include them all, this could be a very long page.

Alphabetical Listing of Other Copyright Theft Sites

Other Scams

Other Web Sites
All comments about copyright also cover content of all our other websites including, but not limited to:-

• Chards
  www.chards.co.uk
• Investment Gold Bars & Coins (This Site)
  taxfreegold.co.uk
• General Coins & Jewellery:
  www.24carat.co.uk
• Gold Sovereigns:
  goldsovereigns.co.uk
• 18 Carat Gold Jewellery:
  www.18carat.co.uk
• 9 Carat Gold Jewellery:
  www.9carat.co.uk